Sunday, January 20, 2019

Dermpath and AI

Hi everyone,

This weekend, I'm reading Practical Dermatopathology by Ronald P Rapini. It seems a very well organized book. There is an interesting analogy in the book. It says:
Pathologists may be subcategorized into home-run hitters and hedgers. The home-run hitters try to "force" a diagnosis, and give only one most likely diagnosis. They are either very, very correct, and look very smart, or else they strike out and miss the diagnosis completely. This can be dangerous. For example, they might diagnose a lesion as a definite Spitz nevus, which subsequently is found to be a melanoma when it metastasizes. Most Spitz nevi can be diagnosed with relative certainly, but there are always those difficult cases for which all the experts can have their opinions, using the best of criteria, but for which there remains an element of uncertainly. Simple histology has its limits in predicting biologic behavior. Hedger pathologists, by contrast, seldom make a specific diagnosis, and instead often give a long differential diagnostic list, even to the point of listing histologic possibilities that are ridiculous from a clinical standpoint. They rarely strike out, but they are sometimes not very helpful, and are not appreciated by clinicians. Wise pathologists avoid these two extremes.
This reminds me of a concept brought up by a pathology resident, the idea of spotters or 'instant diagnoses' of entities which are instantly recognizable, versus other types of cases that can be more complex. I suppose the home-run approach would work great with spotters, whereas hedging would be most applicable to more ambiguous situations. Another resident told me, 'the best pathologists consider differentials before honing in on a diagnosis'. Essentially, going from good to great requires finding a happy medium. "The art of pathology is to be dogmatic about the diagnosis as often as possible, while not being afraid to hedge and give a differential diagnosis when the diagnosis is uncertain."

Today, I want to discuss the idea of pathology as art, within medicine, involving subjectivity. The reason for this is because of the strange idea that technology, such as high-powered computers or robots, will someday replace pathologists.

People who say pathologists will disappear as a specialty under the threat of AI do not really understand pathology. When this topic inevitably comes up in clinic, and I try to explain why AI would not be a threat to pathologists, it seems the clinicians become disinterested in the conversation. Why this is the case, I am not really sure, since most of the time they were the ones who brought it up as a topic of discussion in the first place, in response to me telling them that I am interested in going into pathology.

Thus, I want to list my personal opinion regarding why I think AI will not threaten the livelihood of pathologists everywhere.

1) Big tumors and sampling - I watched a TEDx talk where the presenter showed machine learning in which the computer was fed images of biopsies, and was able to stratify them in terms of prognosis with some accuracy. There are many judgements which a pathologist must make regarding biopsies and large cases, which a machine is incapable of. A machine is capable of producing output based on the data given to it previously, however, would it be able to determine whether a biopsy is adequate (in other words, representative of the lesion) [absence of data], or when it comes to larger specimens, whether the tumor has been adequately sampled during grossing? For some reason, I find it hard to believe that a machine would be able to determine whether additional sections of a large tumor need to be put in. These are judgements which an experienced pathologist makes easily and instantly when assessing a case.

2) Ontology and context - a machine does not understand the true meaning of what it sees. Yes, a person (i.e. computer scientist) can assign different values to data within the program/algorithm. However, truly understanding disease processes is something I cannot see a machine doing now or in the future. For example, a pathologist notices that a prior biopsy or sample had changes similar to the one he/she is noticing today, and based on the patient's lab tests and chart, concludes that the patient has a particular disease. The pathologist is able come to this conclusion based on a compilation of disparate sources of information, observation, analysis, and medical knowledge.

This brings me to the next two points.

3) Stains and artifacts - A machine (read, computer) does not know what is plausible or implausible. Preparation artifacts occur on a daily basis. Yes, a machine could be taught to recognize these, but there may be misinterpretations because of the variable presentation of such artifacts, given that they may range to subtle to overt. This highlights the often undervalued role of the pathologist as serving in QC (quality control) of the histology lab where slides are prepared. Pathologists are the arbiter of what is allowable in the quality of histology slides that are made for diagnostic purposes, for only pathologists have the privilege of conferring diagnostic meaning to a slide. Moreover, there are many mimics in pathology. Would a machine be sophisticated enough to distinguish these. Lastly, stains which require the use of a polarized microscope/direct immunofluorescence (DIF), I see a machine struggling to interpret given that it is based on light pattern and intensity.

4) Communication - One of the jobs of a pathologist is to serve as a liaison between clinician and the laboratory given the clinical context, in instances calling the clinician to get more information or recommending the appropriate ancillary testing, or simply communicating results in tumor boards, etc. Appropriate communication is something machines still have not mastered, just note our communication frustration with Alexa, Siri, and Google Home and various other voice activated/dependent products on the market currently. Formulation of reports are also important methods of communicating to clinicians in a concise, accurate fashion our assessment of a particular case. I feel doubtful that a computer or machine would be able to fashion a report which serves to be a useful consult to a clinician.

From my experience in pathology thus far, I feel AI will be a helpful adjunct, which may increase the efficiency of existing pathologists. Where I do see AI playing a role, is in removing some of the tediousness of pathology, and introducing more standardization, for example in the interpretation of stains such as HER-2 IHC, where there is interobserver variability. Just like AI was slotted to make radiologists "extinct" years ago, when radiology was brought from the 'dark ages' of silver-stained films to digitalized imaging and reading rooms, pathology is similarly on the cusp of making the transition from physical microscopes and slides to completely digitized workstations. Just see how they do it in Belgium.

One of the revolutions in pathology which I think will happen in my lifetime is the advent of telepathology, in which pathologists are freed to live and work in whichever location that they choose while reading virtual slides for a laboratory based in another location. This may help alleviate trainees' concern in pursuing a specialization which may not be particularly in demand, or concerns about finding a suitable position in a desirable location. Overall, the advances of modern day (tech revolution) hold a lot of promise as a tool for education as well, and I am excited to see how far the next generation of pathologists take this.

Saturday, January 12, 2019

Lung path

Hi guys,

Been going over lung pathology using Foundations series book and Sanjay mukhopadhyay's Youtube channel. I want to correlate with cytology, but not sure about resource to use besides DeMay. What would be really good would be an atlas with cytopath correlates. 

Lung is a deceptively "simple" organ. It looks simple on H&E, but now I know there is way more than meets the eye... Autopsies, I feel, really help in understanding the lung in disease given it is pretty rare to get a full lobectomy specimen on a living patient. In that sense, it is somewhat (but not completely) like the brain. i.e. full brain, you know, person = 100% dead; Whereas, lung-wise person ≈ dead, remember you need two. But yeah... It is nice seeing coronal gross slices of lung, in an Autopsy Atlas, for example. Even better to see multiple slides (but not so nice for the patient). It is kind of unfortunate that there aren't more lung pathologists, but I understand it because of the volume. 

I'm interested in how the discovery of PD-L1 will change the field of lung cancer / pathology. The lab at my home institution is trying to bring PD-L1 IHC (immunohistochemistry) in. Perhaps if there was a method that was faster (molecular anyone?) it might be worth a pretty penny. Essentially, since the technology is so new, I feel like there are many directions to take this... investigation into better IHC markers as surrogate or improved over PD-L1 perhaps, or perhaps even a new technique, or a way to standardize it, would be helpful... though I'm guessing pharma R&D are all over this right now. Just a hunch.

What are some new developments you all have noticed recently?

Side note: Was recommended this book (Diagnostic Pathology: Kidney Diseases, 2nd Edition) by Robert Colvin at MGH. Along with Silva's renal path and Heptinstall's. All seem like great books for learning renal path. It's hard to find these books, but I suggest interlibrary loan if available where you are... another resource is WorldCat, which is a worldwide catalogue for books in libraries around the world.

Friday, January 4, 2019

Books

Hi everyone,

Happy 2019!

Today I wanted to post about books.

For surgical pathology, my top 4 recs

Foundations in Diagnostic Pathology series
AFIP fascicles (Atlas of Tumor Pathology)
WHO Classification
AJCC 8th edition

It may be worth going on WorldCat or requesting via interlibrary loan if one wishes to read the physical copy. However, I don't think it is worth buying immediately as the copies are updated every few years and it is worth waiting until residency to buy and only when you need to (buying WHO when starting hemepath rotation, for example).

I was actually quite surprised to find that the library at my medical school had a few physical copies of the Foundations series in addition to the big DeMay cytology textbooks (also recommend). I think there is a smaller, condensed version (Breviary in Cytopathology).

I do feel it is good to get information from different sources, as pathology changes constantly. Staying up to date is a difficult, but necessary task.

It is very interesting as there are a few entities in pathology in which the name has changed recently to be more PC (politically correct) or less confusing and if you talk to a pathologist who has been around a while, they use the names interchangably or just the 'old' name. From the perspective of a young person entering pathology, I think it is better to use the 'new' name, to minimize confusion, however. It also shows that you are keeping up to date with new trends and developments.

What books do you recommend?

P.S. I hear books by Cambridge (publisher) for pathology are good, but can't get my hands on any copies.

Saturday, December 22, 2018

X-mas post

Hi everyone,

I am officially done with my neurology rotation!

Went to a Christmas party with the rest of the medical students yesterday night to celebrate.

The school is giving us 2 weeks of break. I'll finally have time to sit down and read a book 'cover to cover' as they say. Have a list of personal to do's before getting back into the swing of things.

I've recently been getting into Blancpain ladies watches, maybe I could visit their boutique over the break.

Other thing I wanted to do was donate blood... I actually showed up one time to the Red Cross on a random day after I had an appointment at school, and I couldn't donate because it wasn't a 'blood drive' day. I didn't know you had to coordinate the timing.

Other than that, I need to get my hands on some pathology books before starting my next rotation, which is in pathology at my home institution. I haven't looked at a slide in a while.

So plan for today is school library and red cross

Merry Christmas~

So I ended up donating today, but like years ago when I donated in college, I was hard to get blood from (#tinyveins). They only got about half-a-pack from me, even though I drank extra fluid this week. Person said to try the other (left) arm next time (I figured my dominant hand might have larger veins), and hydrate. From reading forums online, I guess they can probably use it for pooled products (platelets, clotting factors, albumin). Hopefully next time, I'll be able to reach 500 ml. The reddit has some good tips on what to do beforehand. Well it was only my second time donating so, if I donate again, maybe it will go better.

Fun facts: I'm O+.
You can donate whole blood every 56 days.
You aren't allowed to donate if your iron is too low.
There is a Blood Donor phone app from the Red Cross.
Red Cross FAQ   Stories
Reddit for blood donors, potential and existing
Blood Bank guy <-- for those interested in CP

Blood types have been popularized in Asian countries to be a determinant of personality type similar to horoscopes. Just see the comic/show Blood Type ABO!

Sunday, December 2, 2018

Harpsichord and the brain

Hi readers,

I have been loathe to write posts as I have been overseas for ~1 week to Singapore on vacation.

Currently I am on Neurology rotation, and I am actually really enjoying it. The hours and other docs on this rotation are very reasonable and I am finally able to correlate some neuroanatomy with clinical presentation which is really just icing on the cake. Stroke 'call' or rapid evaluation for stroke which can occur pretty much anywhere in the hospital would probably be one of the most important functions of having neurologists in the hospital, from what I am seeing so far. According to the attending, Neurology is one of the last bastions of specialties in which the physical exam trumps any imaging findings. i.e. if it's a stroke clinically, you call it a stroke regardless of the imaging. Given the complexity of the brain and the natural tendency for humans (read, radiologists) to make mistakes when faced with complexity, it will likely be one of the last hold-outs. I am not even concerned that a more powerful magnet / technology for imaging will make any sort of difference in this regard. An interesting pathway a neurologist can possibly go with regards to fellowship is neurointerventional, involving using catheters to treat brain disease. This is very interesting to me, as neurology in itself is not a very procedurally-inclined specialty, so the learning curve must be pretty darn high starting to be trained as an interventionist. Nonetheless, a few of the residents would like to go into this, and I say best of luck to them!

Recently, I have rediscovered the music of Domenico Scarlatti and the sonatas for harpsichord, which he wrote towards the end of his life. Very enjoyable.

This being the weekend, I went to the local art museum.
Speaking of which, I was also at the National Gallery of Singapore on my trip.
It was very interesting to see southeast asian subjects portrayed with traditionally European painting methods. I was listening to this on the plane ride back.

So in chatting with my attending, I did inform her about the difficulty of finding a geographically desirable location to practice or even a job as a neuropathologist, though working as a forensic pathologist is greatly enhanced having done training/fellowship in neuropathology. Just see David Dolinak and his wonderful books. She was unaware and it was nice informing her about the realities of being a pathologist in a niche specialty in this day and age. Perhaps it helps explain why there is such a lack of pathologists and especially neuropathologists, when it is such a huge risk to be taking given market forces and demand.

Speaking with them though, it seems radiology and neurology both agree that neuropathologists are a wonderful (but scarce) resource and trusted colleagues. Very happy to hear recognition by other specialties of pathology.

Enjoy~


Sunday, November 4, 2018

Rad-Path correlates

Hi everyone,

I'm on a 2 week rotation in radiology this month. I've been sneaking in reading about bone tumors, which can be notoriously hard to differentiate histologically, and require correlation with radiology and clinical presentation to avoid misdiagnosis. Same thing with brain tumors. Sign out with the neuroradiologist has also been a wonderful review of neuroanatomy for me.

Here are some relevant sites for your perusal:
Functional Neuroanatomy from University of British Columbia. check out the movies, brain cutting
Neuroradiology cases
URochester Rads cases
U Western Ontario (more neuroanatomy)

Picked up a Neuropathology book from the Foundations in Pathology series from the library.
Also, bone tumors are interesting.

For those considering radiology, I suggest checking out these videos:
Radiology school on Youtube  (bone tumors videos are esp. enticing)

Previously I pondered how one should write pathology reports.

The qualities which I feel an ideal pathology report should have are:
(1) accurate, understandable (2) readable and/or succinct, (3) useful to the clinician (4) comprehensive (synoptic when appropriate).

Observing the radiologists dictate their reports over the past two weeks, I think I've gradually come to the conclusion that, when possible, differential diagnoses should be included in more pathology reports when the findings are equivocal.

Perhaps why this is not more commonly done is because it requires a knowledge of the patient's clinical course in order to formulate. Another reason might be due to the personality of the pathologist -- I think many people go into the field because they enjoy the satisfaction of working up a case to effectively narrow a broad differential formulated by the clinican and/or radiologist and come up with a definitive diagnosis.

Certainly molecular diagnostics and immunohistochemistry can help support a diagnosis, but, especially in the field of hematopathology and cytology, so far as I've noticed, there can be multiple interpretations.

I do feel if pathologists take seriously their role as consultants that relay useful information to the clinician, it is not wrong to call or email a clinician for more clinical history/presentation to inform a differential diagnosis, and to indicate our level of suspicion for each.

Pathologists could take a page from the Radiologist's book in this regard. They are more or less experts at communicating their best educated guess and alternate possibilities to the clinician.

Another interesting reporting style which I recently noticed is: reporting comments in the format of a letter addressed to the clinician. Although I personally think this is a good way to include information to patient support groups. To me I think it should be reserved for cases in which the pathologist wishes to educate a clinician on a rare entity or condition. Personally speaking I believe all treatment/management considerations should be a decision made by the clinician and the patient, and neither the report nor the pathologist should comment.

To pathologists reading: what is your favored reporting style?

Monday, September 3, 2018

Gyn, Path & Patient care

Having weathered the gauntlet that is/was my inpatient pediatrics rotation, I have been kind of off the radar. But, lucky me, I just happened to land having family medicine during the one month that has a holiday that Americans have no justification for or idea about its origin: Labor Day!. The 1 extra day this weekend did leave me less sleep deprived to the point where I feel 'encouraged' to write for you, dear readers. So, I want to relate a story from the clinic.

While I was on the EHR software at my Family Medicine rotation site affiliated with not-to-be-named medical center recently, I came across... a somewhat awkwardly worded pathology report. The phrase found in the pap smear cytology report at the end of a reasonably long paragraph was simply: Trichomonas vaginalis. Not positive for Trichomonas vaginalis, not trichomonad organisms are visualized, just name dropped the bug and out.

At first I wasn't really sure what to make of this, whether it was positive/negative or just a transcription error. So, after looking up the appropriate treatment (metronidazole), I brought it up on presenting to the attending/preceptor with the 3rd year resident, sayin' "hey, this lady was [insert] positive for Trichomonas on the pathology report". Only to get a... "we only treat that if the patient is symptomatic." I mean, having T. vaginalis on the path report was simply pretty just served as a record that the pathologist saw it under the scope, it didn't add to a potential diagnosis. To the clinician, unless the patient is clinically symptomatic it's almost as if that line/information wasn't there. So it's really more of a record 'that we saw it', so to speak.

So this got me thinking about priorities, and layout of a pathology report. In terms of priorities, what is a clinician most likely going to want to know from the report?  When it comes to gynecology specimens, clearly any tissue diagnosis be #1 priority. Then Cytology and HPV results. Additional comments or interesting facts can be saved for a comment at the end of the report. Maybe that the pathologist saw Trichomonas  should have been reported in a 'not clinically useful/relevant' section (i.e. comment) instead of in the main report. This is why being a well-rounded doctor makes the best doctors (and pathologists), in being able to prioritize information in terms of clinical relevance.

I have to say, I kind of hate descriptive diagnoses and I'm sure clinicians do too. It feels like (and probably is) a cop out on the part of the pathologist. It is kind of a cover for, "hey I don't recognize how this fits into the bigger picture" or "I simply don't know what this entity is, so I'll just describe it for now". Which is probably not very satisfying from the standpoint of the clinician, or Ob/Gyn let's say, reading the report. From what I understand, pathologists and gynecologists had to sit down at a table and mutually agree upon terms understandable to both their specialties to agree on a shared language in order to communicate in said reports. Otherwise, I wonder if it would all be descriptive?

This brings me to my final point which I noticed with some regularity, and I'm only speaking to my personal experience right now is... Some gynecologists make themselves look pretty bad in the eyes of pathologists.  I can't tell you how many times over the course of the year where I would be sitting at sign out with the pathologist and a slide with almost no tissue whatsoever graces our presence. Most of the time it would be signed out as an 'insufficient' or 'inadequate' specimen... Though it's really embarassing and really a waste of everyone's time when there is a fleck of tissue on the slide and the gynecologist still submits it like it's a bona-fide specimen. It makes me wonder, do they bill for more when they obtain/send a 'specimen' when there really isn't any? Because it doesn't fool me. Just because you put a piece of gauze in a formalin jar, doesn't mean there was anything on it... and I'm pretty sure they know this as well as we do. It's not hard to see that there's almost nothing with the naked eye. It's additionally extremely aggravating for the person grossing the specimen when it is a tiny... tiny... specimen, and it causes a whole lot of hulabuloo when there really isn't any specimen to be found or it gets "lost".

So, all I get from this is some gynecologists and pathologists make life harder for the other, though they have a very dependent working relationship. i.e. one cannot function without the other. Therefore, I think it is important to maintain good communication with all parties involved and make sure the working relationship is appropriate and congenial. That way one gives/receives feedback and collaboration happens to improve patient care. After all, we need each other.

Materials for PGY-1

 So I matched in pathology and I'm extremely happy!! I'll be posting resources here that I feel may be useful for an incoming traine...